A deep topic ...

[Getupngo]

I have come to love the women in this forum, and I want to tap your collective well of life experience and wisdom. I ask for your considered opinion on the topic of forgiveness -- what is it, what does it look like and what lengths does it require of the forgiver?

Nearly four years ago, my husband took his beloved 19-year-old mentally ill son duck hunting, and that son shot his father point-blank in the face, killing him instantly. The work of my life since then -- to save my own life and sanity -- has been forgiveness, and I have passed through many phases of it. I can truthfully say that I forgave Ben instantly because I had seen him in full-blown psychosis before, and I know that in his right mind he never would harm his father. I met face-to-face with the boy in jail a couple of months after he killed his father. I hugged him, and told him I loved and forgave him.

Okay, that was a single event. But what do you do after that? Since then, for me, forgiveness has involved living in an intention ... where do I focus my thoughts? How do I channel the rage (because there certainly is rage)? How do hold onto forgiveness while allowing myself to truly feel all of the feelings that come after such a loss?

I liken living in forgiveness to sailing, in that you cannot sail a boat directly at your destination. If my destination is forgiveness, and the straight line between myself and that point is pure Christlike forgiveness, I'm always tacking to one side or another. I think that's just part of being human.

Now to the question. Ben wants me to visit him at the state mental hospital, to which he has been committed, probably for the rest of his life. His mom and siblings have asked me to visit him as well. I resist, because most of the time I can maintain a healthy level of denial about how Jim died. I certainly intellectually know the hows and wherefores. But when I SEE Ben (such as in court) all the emotion rushes back. I'm a wreck for at least a week. I haven't seen him -- except across the bar in court -- for about 3 1/2 years. I haven't seen him at all for about 18 months.

Now, does -- or should -- the work of forgiveness include being willing to go outside of my comfort zone to see this young man who wants me to visit, whose life has also been shattered? Because of his mental illness, I don't know if he needs or can accept comforting. I don't expect it from him. Should visiting him just be about me? How might I conform my intentions to be of service to him?

This is what I've been struggling with. Would you ladies please weigh these issues -- perhaps let them roll around in your thoughts for a while -- and give me your impressions? Thank you in advance and I look forward to reading your thoughts.

[retiredhappy]

My God Janice, I can't imagine what you've gone through. I think you're entitled to your rage if only at life in general for dealing this hand to you. I personally don't think you have to keep putting yourself through the emotional turmoil of visiting him particularly since he's not your biological son. Its sort of like a wound - if you keep opening it up it will never heal. If visiting the young man constantly opens the wound, then leave it alone. Just give it more time and perhaps someday, when its right for you, you'll be able to visit. I can understand him wanting you to visit as it makes him feel better but this is about YOU. You have a right to your feelings so don't feel guilty about doing what is right for you. Its an old adage but true - only time heals.

[Cougarfan]

Janice, my heart goes out to you. What a terrible tragedy.

Now to your question. I would be asking why its so important for you to visit now. It really sounds like its more about them (Ben and his family) and not about you. I agree with Karen that it should be about YOU. If this is something that YOU need for your own healing, then I would go.

The request to visit may be part of the treatment plan for him, but that's about him, not you. He may be stable at this point with treatment and medication and working through his guilt for what happened. Maybe he needs to tell you he's sorry about what happened. So if you visit and he tells you he's sorry, would that help YOU in your own healing? You could call his doctor and discuss the request. The doc might have some insight that the family doesn't have that could assist you with your decision.

You already told him that you love and forgive him, I don't think you're under any obligation to do anything more at this point until YOU are ready.

Laura

[rvgrammy1953]

Janice......1st off, being one of your "Forum Sisters" my heart aches for you, but you aren't asking me for comfort, you're asking me for a way to deal with the current issue in the hand life has given you.....and it's a hard hand to deal with.....with God's help, we all have the ability to Forgive, but we never Forget.......I agree with Karen (retiredhappy) that since he is not your Bio son, you have no obligation to go visit .....and doing so will only prevent you from healing........maybe sometime in the future the time will be right....and maybe not.....Personally, I would have responded better to his Dr. contacting me on this issue than the family doing it.....too many emotions involved there....as opposed to the clinical aspect from the Dr. but that's my opinion......still, you need to give yourself more time to work thru your rage and pain.........You are working on finding PEACE within yourself....when you do, then your forgiveness will truly be complete in your heart.........but in the mean time, thank them for inviting you, but tell them at this time you just aren't ready and leave it at that.

Lori

[Liz]

Janice,

How heavy sometimes is the cross we are asked to bear! I like your analogy of the sailboat. You've probably heard this saying: "I can't control the wind, but I can adjust the sails." I had a small poster with that on my desk for a long time after my husband's serious accident which changed our lives forever, ultimately leading to his death almost 5 years later. I too wrestled with forgiveness of the careless driver who rammed him from behind.

Whenever I struggle with a question such as yours, I search the scriptures, and ask God to show me His will...then try to obey it. No matter what the test, I am always comforted with the assurance that He understands and His Holy Spirit will lead us through this trial.

As to forgiveness, a disciple asked "how many times must I forgive my brother? 7 times? Jesus answered , "not 7 times, but until seventy times seven." (Matthew 18:21-22) Perhaps God is working in this boy's life right now and God may be calling you to be a witness of His forgiveness. "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." (Luke 18:27)

Whatever you decide to do, God will understand and be with you. "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)

I will be praying for you.

[mtngal]

Hi Janice, along with all, my heart is with you, and I'm hoping the sun is shining this morning in Washington for you. Regarding forgiveness, I can only speak from my experience around healing from an emotional train wreck (nothing like you have experienced, but devastating none the less). For me it was a process. I couldn't even think about forgiveness because I was so angry. Eventually though I began to hear what people said about acceptance and then to practice. Again for me, that practice was simply living in the moment and like you said with intention. Some days my only intention was to get out of bed, make the bed, do the dishes, just do my routine. When I stopped fighting acceptance it just happened; my next steps were around compassion, and then at some point, forgiveness become part of my life. I truly don't know just when that happened, one day it was just there. That said, my healing DID NOT at any time involve the other person in my situation. It was all my work and I don't think it depended in any way on interaction with him. Now I can wish him well and really mean it.

For your question, my first impression is that Ben and family might be looking to you to allow their own forgiveness (and healing) to happen. The catch is, of course, that you can't do it for them. A couple of the gals have all ready said, you work is taking care of yourself. If you know what a visit will do to you, that seems to me to be your answer. In the 12 steps rooms we often talk about ripple effects of both good and less fortunate situations. If you take care of yourself now, creating the healing you need, who knows what the future ripple effects will be? Except that I know they will be good. Take care.

[Bethers]

Janice,
I've gone through several emotions and answers to you as I read all the other responses - then said, I'm not sure I can say anything that hasn't already been said by all the wise women who responded before me. But I'm going to try.

I agree with all of them - and Veda's words could have come from my own mouth.

I have an experience that I can't give fully on the net (if you would like, I could email or pm you with it) - but will say that while I have forgiven this person, probably all the times said in Liz's post over the course of my life - had I been strong enough to cut off ties sooner, rather than later, maybe I wouldn't still be finding it necessary to forgive the person (and to try to forgive myself) as each time we saw each other, I found myself again feeling the need to forgive - and going backwards in my own healing. It's now been several years with no contact, and I'm the most healed I've been in my entire life. Today, when someone tells me that I need to see the person, I say, no I do not. It won't do me any good.

A good friend of mine was abused by his mother for all his life, in various ways. She died this year. He's in his mid-to-late 60's. He's been spending all his life trying to forgive her - but every time they had contact over the years, his pain came back as fresh as when he was younger. With her death (which he never wished or prayed for) he is finally thinking that he might be able to heal more than he ever has before.

Me, I would say no to visiting with this young man. And you need to not feel guilty about doing so. Seeing him now has nothing to do with you having forgiven him - you already did that. And, if it becomes necessary, I'd have no further contact with the rest of his family, if that contact is to be mainly along these lines. Should you decide to see him, I would say it would need to be under a very controlled setting, with his doctor involved, and possibly with you having an understanding that this will be a one-time visit, and they shouldn't ask you to do this again. (Again, my heart and beliefs are for you to not see him at all - but that is MY answer, not necessarily yours.)

My heart goes out to you during this very, very trying time - and your decision, no matter what any of us say, is yours alone. And I'm sure I speak for all of us - whatever decision you make, we will stand behind you 100%.

[MsBHaven]

Janice, my heart goes out to you. I'm so thankful that you felt comfortable with this group of caring women to ask for their guidance. It's such a great group of women and I think they all have given you good advice.

I believe you have made it known that you have forgiven this young man; I think that is more than enough. The strength it must have taken to do that should be enough for any human to have to do. As I read this story I found myself getting angry at his family to even expect more out of you.

In my opinion, this 'relationship' should end so you can heal. It seems to me that you are a remarkedly strong woman who gathered the strength to forgive this young man and now I hope you can gather the strength to say "no" to a visit thereby allowing yourself to continue your own healing process as you try to move on after this tradgedy.

I hope you can find answers from our thoughts and comments and that somehow you can find strength in them to reach a decision that is best for YOUR well-being.

[Getupngo]

Thank you all for your compassionate replies. The impetus for considering this visit comes from me, not from the docs nor from his family's request. He was my husband's very beloved son and my consideration is based upon that, and what Jim might have wanted.

Having said that ... I'll tell you a story. After Ben killed Jim, I became Ben's advocate with the courts and the news media (we wanted him to be hospitalized, not imprisoned). I told myself I would do for Ben what Jim would have done, had Ben killed me instead. After 18 months, one of my friends said, "Janice, that is not the corollary. It is : 'What would Jim have done if Mike (MY son) had killed YOU?'" I was stunned. I did NOT know the answer to that question. What I did realize was that my advocacy position was one more layer of denial, one more way of not letting Jim be dead.

I don't know that a visit would benefit Ben. He is so severely ill, the docs at the state hospital cannot completely control his voices or hallucinations. In fact, I did try to see him one time at the hospital and the docs informed me that I was the one person on earth who could NOT visit him (YEEEouch!). That has since changed, but I wonder whether the original wisdom was valid.

This is, above all, a family tragedy. We are all bound together by this shared grief, however imperfectly we experience or express it (including yours truly). Liz, thank you for the scripture. I've certainly forgiven ten times the seventy times seven, and will continue to do so and will pray for guidance and inspiration on this question. To be clear ... I forgive Ben for ME, not for him, because I don't want to live in a vortex of hate. I think that is the central teaching in that scripture.

Yes, seeing Ben could stir up a hornet's nest for me, but hey, what else is new? But what I don't know is what other gifts might accompany that discomfort. My goal in life is not to live pain-free, because that is not what life is. I try to remain open enough to see when a door is opening.

Yes, Liz. I need to pray.

[SeeyaGal]

Janice my heart goes out to you, ((((((((HUGS))))))this must be so heavy on you. I liked the advice everyone gave. Don't go unless YOU are ready to, and if not ...don't.

[dpf]

(((((HUGS))))) Janice. I belief is that you have to be true to yourself. If you feel that you both want and need to go and visit then by all means you should. But if you are going to visit because you only feel obligated then don't. You have said that you were an advocate for your step-son because you felt it was what your departed husband would have wanted but please consider this. Jim loved you too, would he want you to put yourself in a position that could impede your healing process? When any of us experience a tramatic event in our lives we go through the grieving process: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and hopefully finally we get to acceptance. Some people can reach acceptance in a day and for others it takes years or never. That doesn't mean a person is weak. If or when you decide to visit it should be on your terms. Something you have decided to do, not what others expect or want of you. Please remember all of us are here for you.

[Paulette]

{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} Janice, I don't think I can say anything more than everyone else here has said. My heart goes out to you and I admire the fact that you are such a strong woman. Only you can answer the question of what YOU should do. What would I do? Too many things factor into that question...so I can't answer it.

So all I can do is offer hugs.

[avalen]

so much good advice here, I don't know what to say, I admire all the ladies for
their wise words of wisdom. I myself still struggel trying to forgive my own son
for the turn of events in my life, just about the time I was forgiving him and
helping him again, it would start all over again. The last time I put him out of
my life and started to heal once again was 2 years ago. Now, just last week I
find out he is no longer homeless, lives with some other guy as room mates
and has a cell phone. My daughter gave me his phone number, I've put it in
my cell phone but have not been able to call him. I feel I am not healed enough
to be able to do that. For me thats the way it has to be, for now. Some day
perhaps I will feel differently and it will change and perhaps not.
But for you, whatever you decide for your own situation I would support you
wholeheartdly.

oops, sorry about the spelling, where the heck is spellcheck?

[Getupngo]

Ava,

I'm so sorry about your struggle with your son. The saving grace in my situation is that the young man in the mental hospital is not my son. That may have been enough to simply push me over the edge.

I'm glad your son seems to be pulling his life together. Perhaps you need to just let some time go by to see if he achieves some real stability before you can put your toe in. I'm sure your daughter will keep you apprised. When I find something too complicated to sort out myself, I usually find someone of a professional type to help me. God bless.

[Cedar518]

Wow,... i just started going through our messages that have accumulated while I've been away. This caused me to stop and read every word. I have sat here at the computer,.. silent, alone and full of thoughts on all that you have written and what our "sisters" have written.

I have decided that the first two responses were not better than any of the rest ... ALL were thoughtful and wonderful,...but the first two,.. from Karen and Laura express what i believe about this situation. That the request for you to visit Ben is about Ben and that family. YOU need to be all about YOU,... I would hate to see you go to this visit and end up devastated all over again and set back to the beginning in your own process of forgiveness.

I can't imagine what you have been through,... absolutely cannot imagine. But I care for you and do not want to see you hurting so deeply all over again. Be careful,.... don't misjudge the reasons for the request for your visit.

And from me to you,.... (((YOU))) a special hug,...