Osteoporosis Thoughts?

[Cudedog]

As they say, it is hell to get old.

My doc wants to send me for an x-ray scan for Osteoporosis. I have complained so much about medical care on here, I guess I should be grateful.

I know Osteoporosis has been discussed on here before, but would appreciate anyone else's thought/experiences/potential treatment options.

If anyone thinks this is too personal, please just PM me.

Thanks.

Anne

[Bethers]

I'll keep this short, but recommend getting the test. However if meds are discussed, come back. Because osteoporosis was major in my mom's family, including my mom and her sister, I wasn't surprised when diagnosed with osteopenia in the 2000's. The meds were fairly new and both my sister and I were talked into taking Fosamax, the newest and supposedly best on the market at the time. My sister had reactions to it so stopped quite early. Several years down the road, I had jaw pain and hip pain. Shortly after that, while rving in Baja for the winter, I received an email from my sister with news stories about new side effects. Both included jaw and hip problems. I stopped taking it immediately. But my next testing showed full blown osteoporosis in my right hip. I did a lot of studying and found several natural remedies which I've been taking for years. Nothing has progressed (had my latest test last fall) but my hip and jaw still always remind me with aching, etc. And every doctor warns me about the dangers of falling, etc because a hip break would be devastating. I've heard it so much that I'm now afraid to do hiking I was doing not long ago, etc. Yes, that's psychological but it has a basis in truth. My sister, 6 years older than me has stayed in osteopenia and never progressed. We both try to get lots of walking in, as it helps, but once it progresses to osteopenia, you might, like me, slow progression, but so far none know of it reversing. Oh, one doctor told me the new meds are better. Ha, same possible side effects. My current doctor has me listed as unable to take any of them because they all have some things in common. And all still show these same side effects. Plus she's quite impressed with my research and that it's not worsened. But still worried about a fall/break.

[OregonLuvr]

I have many friends that took Fosamax and sure wish they didnt. They have lots of problems. I am pretty much anti certain meds. Not taking a lipid test anymore because I am never taking Statins!!! Dont take the bone density test anymore because I am not taking those meds. I refused HRT during menopause due to the possibility of breast cancer. I just sucked up the side effects. My personal beliefs only. I do take the eye injections for macular degeneration and the Rituxan for Rheumatoid arthritis.................so far so good on those.

These are all personal choices we all can decide for ourselves.

[JudyJB]

I have had several bone density tests over the years, and have always been told I had osteopenia, but not to the point where I needed to take anything. I have also had a couple of hard falls while walking in the past two years, and one really hard fall off of my bike, and have not broken anything. I somehow think that is a better test than the bone density x-rays!!! At least for me.

Frankly, almost everyone I know has had a diagnosis of osteopenia, so I am not sure it really means anything. I know it means a small amount of bone loss, but the assumption seems to be that it is a precursor to osteoporosis. For decades, I avoided taking the usually prescribed calcium supplements and Vitamin D because my doctors thought it might increase my chances of getting more kidney stones. Don't know if that was true or not.

Just my opinion...

[MandysMom]

I'll try to find the interview I just watched a few days ago with a woman 70 years old who reversed osteopenia with diet and exercise. My Mom had supposedly severe osteoporosis, yet fell multiple times, and broke no bones! I took a early interest and took calcium and vitamin D3 and magnesium, based on the research then, but later dropped the calcium, when I learned it does not prevent boneloss. The important thing to know, is, bone is a flexible protein matrix, into which minerals are deposited and removed bit by bit in a process called remodeling. Protein is something many seniors are short on. It must be complete protein. No plant contains all the amino acids, and that's why vegetarians tend to be more at risk, but seniors, who cut back on eating, seem to tend to eat less meat, thus cutting their protein sources. Recent years, it's come to light that Vit k2 complex is very important to the maintenance of bone. There is a small exercise which helps build bone, if the body has the right tools. It consists of jumping (not high, you just barely clear the ground, but land on heels, so you get a slight jarring effect. I read a study maybe six months ago about how just that increased bone density in skeletal bone. Walking helps, but lifting "heavy" things twice a week makes a big difference over time. To start that can be as light as two soup cans in a routine which covers entire body-arms, legs, trunk. Lots of great videos on you tube- search strength training for seniors or elderly. I'm up to using 3 lb weights but those are getting easy, so I need to find my 5's. Those two things: eating ample protein, plus strength training twice a week, can turn the tide.
A good strength work out taking 20" is on: yes2next channel Titled 20 minute full body strength workout
The interview i mentioned above is both on YouTube and podcast by Dr Shawn Baker (orthopedic surgeon) with Donna, titled : You Will Not Believe What She Went Through
The test Anne, you are referring to, is, the Dexascan. You lie still on a table while a scanner head sweeps along your body, using high and low energy X-ray beam to measure bone density. I have them done every 8-12 years to help me know how my personal program of diet and exercise plus supplementing magnesium, potassium, Vit K and D are working. My last scan was 7 years ago, and the one before that was 12 years before that. What the radiologist who read it could not understand was, my bones were good 19 years ago, but 10% Better 7 years ago! He says, at best you hope not to be losing bone, but I gained bone , which he seldom sees. Some of you know, 14.5 years ago I began Curves, which does both strength and cardio, as well as flexibility . Then they moved further than I want to drive. So I developed my own program of walking both treadmill and outdoors, Body Groove dance (strength, cardio, flexibility) and now adding strength with weights to up the game. I really enjoy what I do. CoVid was hard on us all, and it's prudent to work to be better.
I will never take those bone drugs due to evidence of necrosis of the jaw and other severe damage. Sorry I can't look up links as this is my older iPad which doesn't do YouTube.
Velda

[Cudedog]

Thank you, Velda, for jumping in on this with your detailed response. After reading Beth's response, and now yours, it sounds like one of the primary "bone drugs" is Fosamax.

I did a couple Google searches, and this drug looks like a horror show. I will never take it!!

Thanks also for mentioning about animal protein. My preliminary research suggested that protein is an important component of bone health, which I didn't know.

I am not a vegetarian by any means, (have been a major meat eater most of my life) but in the last couple of years I have been cutting back on meat consumption, partly because I don't seem to like it as much as I once did (when I lived on my rural acreage in the foothills, we raised our own beef - which tastes a lot different than the store-bought kind), and partly because I somehow got the notion that too much meat was "bad".

I guess I kind of fit the profile you mentioned of cutting back on eating, and thus cutting back on meat. I'm definitely going to let more meat back into my diet!!

I have always been physically active, and absolutely love to take long walks - but there are often loose and unattended dogs here where I walk, which has made me somewhat reluctant to go out these days. I even had a loose dog knock me down, a very unpleasant experience. BUT! No excuses! I need to do better - I have a large-ish back yard, I can walk circles if nothing else - with maybe a couple of soup cans in hand.

Velda, thanks again for your post. I'm going to save it to my desk top so that I can re-read it as needed.

Much appreciated.

Anne

[MandysMom]

Anne, remember if you can do bicep curls with a soup can easily 12 times- get a bigger can! It's always by challenging that helps build. If you only use same size, your body says, ok, fine , I can deal with that, so I don't need to build more! I really recommend that channel I recommended. It's a mother (maybe our age or older) and her daughter- the daughter is a fitness instructor. If you dont want to watch the video twice a week, watch it a few times, and write yourself a clue sheet for the routine. Don't just walk around with soup cans and think you have made all better!
Most of us learned about bones and calcium in school. The protein part mentioned maybe only in physiology class, but never emphasized. Over past few decades, the average consumption of meat, fish, and poultry (animal protein) has gone down, while heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, and osteoporosis have dramatically risen. Of course, it's to the advantage of the pharmaceutical industry, who tell Drs, RX this drug and it will fix it (which ever "it" they are selling for). As generations go by, we do less and less physical work/activity each day. By intentionally adding back activity and reducing highly inflammatory sugar and seed oils and adding more protein, we can make a difference. Of course, it's up to you if you want to have a once a decade Dexascan, just to monitor your progress, so you can adjust your personal program. That's why I do Dexascan every decade or so! Drs "in the know" now, are saying strength training is one of the most important things you can do to stay out of a nursing home !
Velda

[Cudedog]

Anne, remember if you can do bicep curls with a soup can easily 12 times- get a bigger can! It's always by challenging that helps build. If you only use same size, your body says, ok, fine , I can deal with that, so I don't need to build more! I really recommend that channel I recommended. It's a mother (maybe our age or older) and her daughter- the daughter is a fitness instructor. If you dont want to watch the video twice a week, watch it a few times, and write yourself a clue sheet for the routine. Don't just walk around with soup cans and think you have made all better!
Most of us learned about bones and calcium in school. The protein part mentioned maybe only in physiology class, but never emphasized. Over past few decades, the average consumption of meat, fish, and poultry (animal protein) has gone down, while heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, and osteoporosis have dramatically risen. Of course, it's to the advantage of the pharmaceutical industry, who tell Drs, RX this drug and it will fix it (which ever "it" they are selling for). As generations go by, we do less and less physical work/activity each day. By intentionally adding back activity and reducing highly inflammatory sugar and seed oils and adding more protein, we can make a difference. Of course, it's up to you if you want to have a once a decade Dexascan, just to monitor your progress, so you can adjust your personal program. That's why I do Dexascan every decade or so! Drs "in the know" now, are saying strength training is one of the most important things you can do to stay out of a nursing home !
Velda

Thanks, Velda.

I'll do everything I can to stay out of a nursing home. Nobody cares about this but me.

Anne

[Redetotry]

I read an article several years ago that osteopenia was made up because a drug was developed and they weren't quite sure what to use it for. I don't remember if it was developed for something else and it didn't work or what. I was told I had full blown osteoporosis at least 20 years ago and I did thake the drug for several months then quit. I've never had another scan but so far so good. I don't believe the first test was accurate I think they just wanted to get the drug to as many as possible. I don't eat as much as I used to but I'm trying to gain weight so will try and remember to eat more meat. There are several good places to buy good local meat here besides the grocery stores as their beef especially does not have a good taste. I avoid as many drugs as possible and currently only take a small dose of BP meds. As a result of that first diagnosis my insurance rate for Long Term Care is more than my husband who has multiple issues.

[Cudedog]

I read an article several years ago that osteopenia was made up because a drug was developed and they weren't quite sure what to use it for. I don't remember if it was developed for something else and it didn't work or what. I was told I had full blown osteoporosis at least 20 years ago and I did thake the drug for several months then quit. I've never had another scan but so far so good. I don't believe the first test was accurate I think they just wanted to get the drug to as many as possible. I don't eat as much as I used to but I'm trying to gain weight so will try and remember to eat more meat. There are several good places to buy good local meat here besides the grocery stores as their beef especially does not have a good taste. I avoid as many drugs as possible and currently only take a small dose of BP meds. As a result of that first diagnosis my insurance rate for Long Term Care is more than my husband who has multiple issues.

BJ, thank you for your post. So happy to hear that you have not had any problems since your diagnosis. 20 years is a long time!! I'll look around to see if I can find some local meat to buy, shouldn't be too hard because I live in a semi-rural area. But there is nothing quite like home-grown beef!! Jersey beef is the absolute best, but you will NEVER see it in the store, partly because the fat has a yellowish tint. I haven't had home-grown beef in many years, I stopped raising cattle when my kids were small.

Over the years, I have become more and more cautious as time goes by before taking the advice - and drugs - suggested by doctors.

For several reasons.

First, because I have been mis-diagnosed several times as having severe health issues - once I was sent from my doctor's office directly to the ER, because (or so I was told) I was having a heart attack. After about 8 hours in the ER, was finally seen by a different doctor who listened to my heart, did the EKG thing, smiled, said "nope", and sent me home.

Second time I was mis-diagnosed as having severe Rheumatoid Arthritis. After a six-month wait to see a Rheumatologist, I was finally seen, the Rheumatologist looked me over, told me "nope", and sent me home.

There have been other instances as well - but these two stand out.

There is also the factor that floats around in my brain that doctors don't make money unless people are sick, and the sicker people are the more money doctors make.

I don't know how it is where everyone else lives, but here if you have if your doctor orders some tests, they never phone you to discuss the test results (as happened in days of old) - you are required to come in for another appointment to discuss the results. And appointments cost my insurance company about $350.00 per visit.

Since I ask a lot of questions, I'm pretty sure that there is a note in my chart some where that says I am a disagreeable patient.

I, too, avoid as many drugs as possible, I just try to eat healthy and exercise.

I will do the bone-density test, but having read up on various drugs that might be prescribed to me (if I prove to have osteoporosis) treatment looks like a crap shoot, with possible drug side effects that might be worse than the actual osteoporosis.

I'll decide what to do after the test, but I am increasing my walking and animal-protein consumption in the meantime.

Thanks again, everyone.

Anne

[Shirlv]

My bone density results have always been above average. I attribute it to dancing my whole young life and living on the outskirts of town and walking miles to visit Edith. Doctor agreed. I have no experience with medication.

[OregonLuvr]

Anne I just wanted to let you know all docs arent just for the money......but most are LOL I just saw my Rheumatologist and because I am doing so well on the Infusions every 6 months he is taking me off them for now and putting me on hold. At $13,000 an infusion that is a chunk of change. He also said I dont have to come see him in 3 months we will just do a telephone call to make sure I am still doing well. There are protocols when you are on that drug Rituxan but he said a phone call will do because I am not going to get the infusion. WAHOO Of course he stressed if I start feeling joint pains again to call right away DO NOT GO TO THE ER...call me No problem ha ha He left a big practice to start his own "one man office" in January as he didnt want the big hospital group Asante, telling him how to practice.

All of my docs are very good about calling after tests on either the same day or the next day. I am impressed. And I was very wary of the health care here. I am pleasantly surprised. My primary is a wonderful gal and very knowledgable. She diagnosed me when I was so sick, gave me the correct antibiotic and in 5 days I was on the mend. She didnt like that I had lost so much weight and followed up on everything. She should be extremely happy now since I have gained back 30 of the 50 I lost....but I am stopping here hah.
My pulmonologist is also great, always shows me my cat scan and what she is seeing or not seeing. Told me to call immediately if I become congested, get a cold or cough. She wants to treat ASAP.
In general tho I am not impressed with our healthcare and I dont like docs that want to just give you a pill of some sort to fix you. I do have to say some people are not happy with their docs unles they get a PILL prescription. I dont like it when they try to force me to take something I am not ever taking....like Statins, or osteo drugs..nope never!!! I refused the dexascan (my last one was normal) and the lipid test and my primary actually said...OK Just wants me to know it is available if I change my mind. I like that gal.

[Bethers]

Any doctor that doesn't immediately accept me saying no to statins, loses me as a patient immediately. I blame myself with the Fosamax but it was brand new on the market and after watching my mother and aunt and their problems it was easy to take a chance. (My mother fell in the kitchen, and it was determined that the breaking of 3 vertebrae in her back caused the fall, not vice versa. They disintegrated!) That said, I won't take any of the current batch of meds offered and one reason I like my current doctor is she immediately put down that I'm allergic to those from our discussion. I won't argue with Velda about bones gaining strength. I don't doubt that. But there is nothing showing the damage that was done by those medications can be healed. I have stopped further damage so far but I never forget it when I'm having a bad hip day or when my jaw aches. So I will continue getting my scans every 2 or 3 years and celebrate when things haven't gotten worse. And I'll continue walking and doing the other exercises and taking one natural remedy that I believe is helping, but not the rest of that crap.

Doing the current walk for St Jude is easy because it's less walking than I normally do. But with the heat I might not have gotten up as early this month to guarantee my miles.

[Shirlv]

Beth, that sounds like a good plan.