A Women's RV Forum run by Women RVer's!

Redetotry wrote:Anne, I'm all for home cooking if that is ones choice but it is really something that I think needs a lot of research as feeding homemade dog food is very controversial. Here is an article from UC Davis about why if you do make their food you should know what vitamins and minerals you need to add.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/homemade-d ... tudy-finds

Thank you, BJ.

I definitely agree that this can be a controversial topic. A fun one, though, I think.

I also strongly agree that more research needs to be done. A LOT more research.

From here on out, BJ, when I say "you" I am not talking about you specifically, or even personally.

I'm not.

I am just using the universal "you" as a kind of catch-all for anyone who might be interested in reading this essay further.

Thanks for understanding.

We should all keep in mind that vets and veterinary schools can - and do - get grant money from dog food companies. Grant monies can be helpful to keep the curriculum going. Veterinary schools train veterinarians. Veterinary schools also write reports. In the real world, the cost to do research and to write reports is often done with the aid of grants.

Know, too, that studies have also been done on commercial dog foods by (hopefully) non-partisan government entities. Often the official studies on commercial dog foods are. . . inconclusive. Some studies show the commercial foods coming up short. Tons of links are out there, if anyone is interested in doing their own research.

Happy to provide some interesting links, should anyone be interested pursuing this further. Let me know.

Oh, and while we are at it, do a Google search on current dog food recalls. There are generally one or two of these recalls nearly every day. Reasons from the mundane to the potentially lethal. From the small specialty dog food makers to the Really Big Guys.

Fun reading.

Another thing to keep in mind is that commercial dog food producers are not in the business of formulating the best possible, most complete, most nutritious, dog food with the highest quality ingredients. Commercial dog food companies are in the business of producing the highest volume of dog food as possible at the lowest possible cost for resale.

It's just how business works.

In the last couple of decades, it has been my personal and, admittedly, totally non-scientific observation that those of my dogs that lived their entire lives eating hard round brown balls that came out of a colorfully printed bag purchased at the grocery store (or from the pet food store) lived three to four years less than my dogs did when I started making my own dog food.

And these were not just random dogs. They were dogs of a specific breed, all in a family; i.e. they were all related one to another. Mother-father, sister-brother, etc.

I feed raw beef (usually bottom round, which I then cut and cube) purchased at the meat counter at my local grocery store. I feed rice and also a variety of fruits and veggies mostly grown organically in my back yard. Those that I am too lazy or unable to grow I buy from the produce department at my local grocery store. The meat is fresh, human-grade. The produce is fresh, human grade. The rice is locally grown, I buy it in large 25# bags at my local grocery store.

Yes, Karen, I am talking Winco Foods here. Thank goodness there is one near to me, and the prices are affordable, or I would be way down the chute by now.

Commercial dog food producers don't talk too much about the specifics of where they get their ingredients. Maybe they are backing their 18-wheelers up to the back door of Winco in the middle of the night - but somehow I don't think so.

Nor do they want to talk too much about what actually goes into that colorfully-printed bag with the big picture of the happy smiling dog on the front of it. You know, the one with the nice jingle on tv that makes the consumer want to reach for that particular bag.

If anyone reading this would like to have a bit of fun, take out your current bag of dog food and read over the five or so inches of ingredients printed on the side of the bag in a print size too small to read. Have your magnifying glass ready. And your chemical encyclopedia might be a good to have in your hand, too.

You’re going to need both of them.

If any of you know, and can recognize off the top of your head, what all of those dozens of things listed on the bag actually are, and what they actually do, and the purpose for them actually being in the bag (not to mention the long-term and cumulative effect they might have) - then you are a definitely a better person than I am.

I did mention above what goes into my dog’s food. No magnifying glasses or encyclopedias necessary or required. On the other hand, if you don’t have a Winco nearby, you may be in a world of hurt.

Long list of ingredients on my bag of rice: "Rice".

My final point is this:

Some research suggests that dogs have lived with humans for around forty-thousand years. Other research suggests that it might be more than one-hundred-thousand years. Dogs and humans, both being omnivores, eat much of the same things. Certainly not all, but actually quite a lot.

Likely, over these hundred-thousand-years or so, early dogs – let’s call them proto dogs - adapted to eat what humans ate, and to also eat the human’s leftovers. Those proto-dogs that could not adapt – evolve – to survive, or even flourish, eating human foods did not live long enough to add to the gene pool.

Those that did adapt – well, pretty soon they weren’t proto-dogs at all anymore.

They were just plain dogs.

Then, after all of these hundred millennia or so, with everything going along fairly smoothly, here comes Mr. James Spratt. Mr. Spratt is credited with developing the first commercial dog food in 1860, or thereabouts.

Mr. Spratt was not a nutritionist. Mr. Spratt was an electrician.

It took another fifty years or so for this weird commercial dog food idea to finally take wing (up until then everyone just made their own dog food – there were no other options), but once it did, it eventually became the extremely competitive, billion-dollar industry we know today.

Billion-dollar industries generally don’t care much about the individual consumer. Their primary goal is to get that individual consumer’s dollar in their billion-dollar industry's pockets.

By whatever means necessary. Advertising is one way.

It's just how it is. It's how business works. It's how businesses stay in business. It's for the dollars, it's not out of the goodness of their hearts.

That’s about it, I guess. I could probably go on for another page or two, but I suspect that everyone reading this has fallen asleep by now.

Either that, or are now throwing mudballs at their computer screen.

Am I trying to tell everyone – or even one single person – what they should feed their dog? Nope. Not me. Not ever. Not my business.

Definitely, to each his own. Live and let live.

But do yourself a favor, though. Maybe just for fun. Read that ol' dog food bag the next time you get a chance.

Thanks.

Anne

Dog food is definitely a very controversial topic. Most people think they are feeding the "best food". There has been extensive research done in this arena. Anyone can find a study that supports their thinking. I have done extensive research after the Dilated Cardiomyopathy scare. I have chosen the food that does trials and has PHD in nutrition veterinarians on staff. Not just a veterinarian. Most veterinarians have had nutrition courses but nothing in depth or that required research. I feed kibble and also supplement with beef and chicken. My choice. I have friends that feed various raw diets. Neither of us is wrong. Just need to make sure the nutrients are available in both foods. Grants are indeed given to companies to aid in them doing trials and trying to make the best food. I wont buy the Boutique dog foods. They never do long term trials and most do not employ PHD dog nutritionists on staff. I think we all do the best we can do. Humans do not always eat the best foods for them ha ha I continue to follow WSAVA guidelines when buying my dog food. Again my personal choice.

This is a very interesting subject for us to discuss. I liked best the paragraph by Annie “big billion dollar companies don’t care about the individual, they just want to take their $$$”. I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. It behaves us to pay attention and not to fall for the statements made adnauseum on TV and elsewhere.
Lyn

Much truth in everything said so far. I did a lot of research when Peaches was diagnosed with kidney disease and putting her on the prescription for didn't work. Then I tried making her food too strict guidelines. It's not just the food but the vitamins and minerals necessary. That was better but she still was not eating enough and lethargic. I discovered Honest Kitchen dehydrated food with no protein. I added acceptable qualities of protein. She perked up and if I didn't know better I wouldn't have known how sick she was. I say their food helped me give her a few more years of life. So while Ty doesn't have a health reason for it, I still use some of their foods, with protein already in and he giggles it down. He's the healthier dog I've ever had. Over 10 years old and never needed a teeth cleaning for example. Maybe it's in his genes, but I'll continue using their foods.

December 24, 2023

Another pet food recall this morning (this time a food made by a commercial manufacturer of food made for kittens and puppies), due to contamination with salmonella and listeria:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/12/23/blue-ridge-beef-pet-food-recall/72019395007/

Anne

I'm sure this controversy could go on forever and I'm sure we all have our own thoughts on pet food. Just to put my 2 cents worth in: my Dad's dogs never had commercial dog food. My hubby, kids and I followed him and his wife all over the country on RV trips. We always had to find a market, no matter how large or small, where he could buy fresh hamburg, liver, chicken, etc. that he would cook up for the dogs. His "old man" (I know this dog had a name that escapes me right now, but we always called him the "old man") lived over 20 years. On the other hand, our first family cat, Sooti, lived to be 23. She raised 3 boys, always protecting them from whatever perils she saw. Even planting her butt down in the middle of the road not once, but twice, to stop one of the neighbors who started down our street too fast and my son was on his trike in the driveway. Sooti was very afraid of cars, so this was no mean feat for her, but we always knew she would give her life for one of her boys. She followed my youngest halfway to school every day, only stopping when he crossed the railroad tracks. Every afternoon at 3:00 she would be waiting at the tracks to walk him home. I could write a book about the 20+ years of Sooti's eventful life. She lived to see her boys one at a time grow into men. The only cat food she ever had was Friskees. Some of you met my Spike - the original Pooker. She also lived to be over 20. Her diet was mainly Friskees, too.

My Dad and I had two very different feeding approaches - but both of us had great results.

I'll put my 2 cents in on dog food. I personally would never feed anything made by Purina. Nestle's is the company that makes Purina plus many other brands of dog/cat food. There were several reports a few years ago about how Beneful was such a bad food several dogs died from it. My niece almost lost her two Doberman because she wouldn't believe me when I suggested she change their food. I do know how to read labels for the main ingredients and know that corn, wheat, soybeans and especially unidentified by-products should not be in good. dog food. Plus the first 4 ingredients should not include fat or citric acid if you have a dog that is prone to bloat. The following brands are made by Nestle's company.
Alpo
Beggin'
Beneful
Busy
Chef Michael's
Deli-Cat
Fancy Feast
Felix
Friskies
Go Cat
Gourmet
Just Right
Latz
Mighty Dog
Purina Beyond
Purina Cat Chow
Purina Dog Chow
Purina Kitten Chow
Purina Puppy Chow[84]
Purina One
Purina Pro Plan
Purina Veterinary Diets
Secondnature
T Bonz
Tidy Cats
Waggin' Train
Whisker Lickin's
Purina Supercoat

The following quote is from an article by the Association for Truth in Pet food from March 2021. I'm not going to post the link because you need a very strong stomach to see the visuals and read it especially the part that shows photos of where/how by-products are made. Is the information true? I have no proof but as several dogs died due to phenobarbital being in some dog food I tend to believe that part.
"Walk into any pet store across the United States
and you’ll witness pet owners carefully scanning
pet food labels with worried looks on their faces.
They wonder...which one is safe?
Unfortunately, U.S. pet owners are provided with
no assurances. They are at the mercy of a
broken pet food regulatory system that fails to
enforce law and fails to provide pet owners
pertinent information to understand what they
are feeding their pet(s).
The current system of regulation of pet food must be promptly repaired"

I do agree with the UC Davis report that suggests a board certified veterinary nutritionist be consulted as to what one needs to add to home made dog food.

DOG FOOD choice is such a hot topic. I get most of my information from UC Davis and Tufts University Veterinarian Schools. I dont tend to read articles that do not come from reputable sources. BJ I disagree with much of what you wrote but that is okay because we are all allowed our own opinions. More important to do our own research.

OregonLuvr wrote:DOG FOOD choice is such a hot topic. I get most of my information from UC Davis and Tufts University Veterinarian Schools. I dont tend to read articles that do not come from reputable sources. BJ I disagree with much of what you wrote but that is okay because we are all allowed our own opinions. More important to do our own research.

I agree we all have our opinions and I respect that. But I'm finding it hard now to know what information online is really a reputable site. I would really appreciate any suggestions.

These are some of my experiences over many years. I was friends with a woman back around the time so many dogs died from Ethoxyquin that was in some dog/horse food back in the late 90's or early 2000. I was feeding Iams at the time and it was one of the companies that was named. I called Iam's to complain and question, they swore they didn't put it in their food but I had a bag of their food that had it listed. Several months later I noticed bags of their food I saw in the stores did not have it listed. I had a friend around that time who was a distributor for several brands and she said some dog food companies had started buying ingredients that already had it added to them so they didn't have to list it. That was also around the time when California Natural dog food first came out and based on the distributor friends suggestion I fed that until it was bought out by a big company and the dogs refused to eat it. So again was her information true? Why did Iams lie? I have no idea but my one dog whose skin had turned black returned to normal after I started feeding California Natural.

My current theory that I saw suggested by a woman in one of the Standard Poodle FB groups I belong to, is to rotate between brands. That way if one brand doesn't have enough of what your individual dog might need the others that you feed may have it.

BJ I sent you a PM regarding some reputable sites to read at your leisure. LOL

Look for non-profit organizations and groups that consist of people who are qualified in things like pet nutrition, but that aren't trying to sell you a specific product. I would also use library search engines, rather than the internet, to get information on qualifications, and I would ask my veterinarian.

One thing I always do when I look at a news site, especially an internet "news" site, is to check the "About" page and see who the people are who run the journal or website and if they have a mission or purpose. Sometimes I even do an internet search on the person who publishes something. That tells me a lot about the quality of information I can trust from that journal.

Generally, I do not trust people who are posting personal experiences because they often do not have evidence that something caused another thing. For example, getting sick or becoming amazingly healthy after eating, drinking, or doing something does not necessarily show that one thing caused another. Ditto for people saying things which are not measurable such as a pet seeming to be more energetic. There are also problems with some so-called scientific studies. Here is an example of a summary I used to use with my students:

A study was done with a group of nursing home patients. The study found that the patients who drank coffee were much healthier than the patients who did not drink coffee. Therefore, drinking coffee can help nursing home patients feel better. The problem with this is obvious--patients in comas, using feeding tubes, or on restricted diets did NOT drink coffee, so this affected the results of the study and just made it seem as if coffee made patients healthier!!

Judy… sadly many vets really don’t have an I depth understanding of dog nutrition. Unless they have taken it upon themselves to research and educate themselves. Vet school curriculum doesn’t always have much time spent in this area. And…. Many vets are pushers of specialty diets… expensive specialty diets….that they sell directly to their clients. Besides encouraging their clients to use one of foods that start with protein as the main ingredient…. I think they are just relieved that folks aren’t feeding O’l Roy…..

BirdbyBird wrote:Judy… sadly many vets really don’t have an I depth understanding of dog nutrition. Unless they have taken it upon themselves to research and educate themselves. Vet school curriculum doesn’t always have much time spent in this area. And…. Many vets are pushers of specialty diets… expensive specialty diets….that they sell directly to their clients. Besides encouraging their clients to use one of foods that start with protein as the main ingredient…. I think they are just relieved that folks aren’t feeding O’l Roy…..

Thank you for your post, Tina.

I agree wholeheartedly on all of your points.

Again, thank you.

Anne

JudyJB wrote:. . . and I would ask my veterinarian.

(This following comment from earlier in this thread):

"We should all keep in mind that vets and veterinary schools can - and do - get grant money from dog food companies. Grant monies can be helpful to keep the curriculum going. Veterinary schools train veterinarians. Veterinary schools also write reports. In the real world, the cost to do research and to write reports is often done with the aid of grants."

JudyJB wrote: Ditto for people saying things which are not measurable such as a pet seeming to be more energetic.

Judy, I know that you do not keep pets.

That being said, who might be better qualified to observe the daily quality of life of a pet - be it that the pet might be "down and droopy" or "seeming to be more energetic" (after a certain food or supplement) - than the person who lives with that pet, loves them, takes care of them every single day of their entire lives?

Who might that be, other than the pet owner?

Anne