Campfire

[Redetotry]

I've experienced socialized medicine on three continents, and I have to say I admire it. Nobody dies because they can't afford health care and nobody goes bankrupt trying to pay for health care. (Over half the bankruptcies here are because of medical bills -- and of that group, over 40% carried health insurance.)

Another system that seems to work well is to allow multiple insurers, but to require insurance to be a nonprofit industry and to put a cap on operating costs. I've never needed medical care in, for example, France -- but countries with that system show very good figures for overall health care.

The for-profit system of medical care just doesn't work well.

And I have to say . . . when a doctor's office refuses payment for service, even after you point out that you're not a resident and pay no taxes into the system . . . well, it is a surreal experience!

I'm curious Louise, were you visiting in these places when you experienced socialized medicine or were you actually living there? I've heard from people who live in countries with socialized medicine that people have to wait months for an appointment or even surgery.
I also think more people should have coverage, I'm just not sure we taxpayers can afford it. There is already fewer doctors who will accept insurance or will only accept with upfront payment and of course always increased costs. A shortage of any available doctor is also apparent and some who are available are way below average both in training and in ability, especially if you are in certain areas.

[JoanE]

Redetotry, here is my limited experience with socialized medicine. I went skiing in Canada and got the flu. Went to clinic without appt, was examined within a reasonable wait time, dispensed medication on the spot and the total cost was minimal. In Italy, a very wealthy business associate got prostate cancer and needed surgery. We asked him why he didn't seek treatment in the US. He said he had excellent care in Italy and it was free. I met a German gal in Ireland. I asked her about health care in Germany. She said her cost was very low. She did admit that there was sometimes a wait for less serious situations. My cousin lived in France for years. She never had any problems. My neighbors at my current cg are from Canada. They do not have complaints about their coverage.

In all these situations, there may be the occasional grumble but no worse than what we Americans complain about. I recently set up several annual appts for myself and in every case they are all in November.

[havingfunnow]

I traveled in two continents, lived in one. I never had a long wait in a doctor's office. On one occasion, when a friend was injured on the street, he was treated promptly in the emergency room -- and when they saw evidence of an older injury (a metal plate in his skull), they kept him overnight for further tests, just in case.

I never needed surgery, but the people I knew echoed the experience of JoanE's friends. It looks as though advanced tests and procedures are triaged, with truly urgent cases having top priority. We do something similar here -- as long as the sick person has good insurance.

I'd agree that taxpayers probably cannot afford to foot the bill for the current medicine-for-profit system. Of course, neither can individuals, and many employers are refusing to pay a share. I can imagine two solutions to the problem -- one would be to remove health care from the profit system, whether by socialized medicine or by nonprofit insurance. The second would be to return tax and labor laws to their late 1940s form, when both corporations and rich people paid a proportionate share of taxes, and a minimum wage worker could actually live on his salary. (I recently saw figures showing that about 40% of people sleeping in homeless shelters are employed -- which makes sense, with the minimum wage artificially depressed.)

[JudyJB]

You hear a lot about long waits in Canada and Europe, but those are mostly for things which are somewhat elective or could wait a little while--like knee replacements and nursing home admission if someone already has a place to live and is being taken care of by family.

There are some tests and extremely expensive procedures that are hard to get in some countries, but usually they can get the same information from cheaper tests.

We are already paying for the uninsured in our insurance and hospital bills. When someone has no insurance and has the flu, they cannot go to an urgent care center or a private doctor and pay $100, so they go to the "free" emergency room which costs the rest of us several thousand dollars. The hospital cannot refuse them care, so the costs are averaged out and passed onto the rest of us who DO have insurance.

Another related problem, that I once had, was the lack of sick days at work. There was an article describing how few workers have sick days anymore so are going to work sick and making other people sick. I worked as a contract worker or was freelancing for the last 11 years of my career, so when I had to go to a doctor or was sick, I lost pay I could not always afford to lose. So, I skipped going to a doctor even when I had excellent insurance and came in to work with a fever sometimes. It was hard to get weekend or evening appointments, but I tried as best as I could.

I took only 5 weeks off with each of my knee replacements even though my doctor recommended I stay home for 12 weeks. I went into work literally on vicodin, but luckily I had a desk job where I did not always have to interact much with others.

[Cudedog]

Judy, much food for thought.

Anne

[havingfunnow]

Actually, many hospitals can and do refuse treatment to non-critical patients if they have no insurance. Critically ill patients are stabilized and sent elsewhere. Each hospital's policy depends largely on its funding sources.

Yes, the uninsured often request care at emergency rooms, when such care is available. People who work for minimum wage cannot afford health insurance premiums (often, they can't afford both food and housing), while employers increasingly refuse to offer health insurance, preferring to off-load that cost of doing business onto the government. This problem is created by a for-profit health care system and an artificially low minimum wage.

[JoanE]

Louise, I was shocked and embarrased to learn that a single gal working TWO JOBS in NM qualified for food stamps. As an American, it embarrases me that we pay such low wages that this could be her situation. She does not own a car. She walks everywhere, including to work. This gal did not finish high school but she is very bright and resourceful. I encouraged her to get her GED and go to college. I don't know how someone in her circumstances pulls herself up but when I left NM, she was looking into online classes.

[havingfunnow]

Joan, it is horrible -- and, unfortunately, quite common. I don't know how she can get out of the hole either, although a better education might help. Of course, if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation, as it was originally intended to do, she'd be making just under $12/hr; if it had kept up with measurable rise in productivity, she'd be making over $20/hr. I was shocked when I learned how many people who sleep in homeless shelters are employed, but still can't afford living quarters.

I get so frustrated when people want to cut social services like food stamps and blame "the poor" for economic woes. It makes no sense to blame the victims. Businesses make enormous profits by off-loading their costs onto the government by refusing to pay a living wage or offer health care, and stockholders grow rich.

I think the biggest victory the ultra-rich have had is to pit the middle class and the working poor against each other.

[AlmostThere]

Actually, many hospitals can and do refuse treatment to non-critical patients if they have no insurance. Critically ill patients are stabilized and sent elsewhere. Each hospital's policy depends largely on its funding sources.

Yes, the uninsured often request care at emergency rooms, when such care is available. People who work for minimum wage cannot afford health insurance premiums (often, they can't afford both food and housing), while employers increasingly refuse to offer health insurance, preferring to off-load that cost of doing business onto the government. This problem is created by a for-profit health care system and an artificially low minimum wage.

It's a Catch 22 situation. The insurance companies are gouging employers so badly they couldn't afford group insurances so they then either contracted out their work or only hire part-time workers which we know don't get health insurance included. Thus, they end up with no healthcare from the employer and because of short working hours can't afford an individual policy.

[havingfunnow]

Catch-22 is right -- but I notice that insurance companies and corporations are showing huge profits. Somebody is benefiting from all that suffering.

[JoanE]

Catch-22 is right -- but I notice that insurance companies and corporations are showing huge profits. Somebody is benefiting from all that suffering.

Yes, and they live on Park Ave!

[BirdbyBird]

To change the subject. I will just settle in by the fire and wait to share some wine with whoever is out there.

Got back from a visit with my near by Apple Store. My iPhone has been refusing to connect with WIFI. From going on line I discovered that this is an established issue.....off to the store. My personal Genius took it off to run some diagnostics and came back and announced, why yes it had a problem but since my phone is still under warranty that he would go in the back and see if they had one or they will order one on and call me when it gets there. Problem solved! New phone on its way. I like simple solutions.

[JudyJB]

Great to have them replace your whole phone instead of send yours in for repairs. These are not things you can do without!

I am enjoying my view of the ocean where I will be for a few days. Terribly windy, although sunny, so I am sure I will have some rocking and flapping of these overnight. Will need my furnaces, too. No hookups here of any kind, but the view makes up for it!

[monik7]

Great to have them replace your whole phone instead of send yours in for repairs. These are not things you can do without!

I am enjoying my view of the ocean where I will be for a few days. Terribly windy, although sunny, so I am sure I will have some rocking and flapping of these overnight. Will need my furnaces, too. No hookups here of any kind, but the view makes up for it!

Which CG are you in Judy? Diana (mtngal) and I were at Wright's Beach at the end of July. Because my reservation was for a site where the sand kept sinking and I couldn't get level, they gave me one of the more expensive sites instead sitting right next to the beach and looking out on the ocean. They didn't charge me the extra $. Very windy then too, but beautiful.
Sandi

[JudyJB]

I'm at Donan, but they are resurfacing the roads next week, so I need to move on Monday for a couple of days. I am going to try Wright's beach, but might end up in the Dunes park. Gorgeous view, but I wish spots were a little bigger. I had to search through about 10 available walk-ins and there were only two I could fit into. Most would hold a 20' something at most. Then I am back in Napa for two doctor's appointments. I'm going to call the ortho guy and see if I can get any x-rays before my appointment instead of after because I am anxious to be on the road again. I just hope they do not want to draw all of this out. Need one more urology procedure and to get results of CAT scan and blood work.

Even though this is midweek and kids are in school, campgrounds are pretty full!