A senseless loss ...

[kelpie]

I can only add my sympathies for this senseless loss for the ones let behind. Something we often forget in our pain and grief that death does end the pain and suffering for that person. no matter what you believe happens after. I will never believe that suicide is a fully rational act for anyone so his suffering is ended. It's just too bad that the nature of the act lads to so much agony for others.

[Getupngo]

I can only add my sympathies for this senseless loss for the ones let behind. Something we often forget in our pain and grief that death does end the pain and suffering for that person. no matter what you believe happens after. I will never believe that suicide is a fully rational act for anyone so his suffering is ended. It's just too bad that the nature of the act lads to so much agony for others.

Well said, Kellie. There is no black-and-white here. Just pain.

[Excel]

Don't have any 'better' words or thoughts to share with you to help you get through this tragic time. So I will repeat what others have said, my deepest sympathy to you & the family. I hope you will be comforted by all the support from this group. I wish you strength, wisdom, understanding & forgiveness. You're going to need all those qualities as you deal with this & yes, try to take care of yourself as well.....

[rvgrammy1953]

Janice,

I've been sitting here on and off, reading and re-reading, all posts here....feeling your anger and your loss.....since my own loss of my brother is still very fresh, I am loss for words other than the words of comfort and love the gang here has already expressed.....I do know that the viewing and funeral helped my family, his friends, and myself to deal with his sudden death and the expressions of love and support for my sister who was with him when he was mortally injured, suffering her own injuries, too....hence, the belief that viewings and funerals are for the living....Your BIL knew this, so as " his last act of hurting the family" was to limit the "remembering of his life" and the healing for those he left behind....that makes me angry!!! So I feel free to tell you to tell your sister and nephews to go ahead and have the viewing and funeral that they would like, getting all the comfort and expressions of love from family and friends that they can.....cause it isn't their fault!!!! And that comfort helps a long way in the healing process.....

If I repeated my thoughts or seem to ramble too much, please excuse me.....I know it hurts....
Anyway.....((((HUGS)))) thoughts and prayers coming your way....

[BarbaraRose]

I believe that most suicides have nothing to do with "hurting others", but to find relief from overwhelming emotional pain, (from personal experience). There are some who do it to get "even" with someone, but most are not for that reason. Depression is most always the underlying cause of suicide and is a terrible disease. If left untreated, like any disease, will usually end in death one way or another.

I met Danion Brinkley once. Have read all his books. I also believe that when someone dies, they 'relive' their life, seeing and feeling (physically and emotionally) everything they have done to others (both good and bad) and experiencing the repurcusions of all their words and actions on everyone who was affected, directly and indirectly, eventually gaining understanding and then compassion and forgiveness, both for themselves and from God. Just my beliefs

Barbie

[Getupngo]

I met with Pam and the boys to work on his obituary. They decided to have a memorial service
open to all of my BIL's friends, family and colleagues. His sons want to experience and be comforted
by the certain outpouring of love and respect from their father's larger world. I'm so proud of them.
They said they recognized their father's desire for privacy, but said he was not in his right mind --
or else he would not have done what he did.

And I didn't have to say a thing.

I'll be going to the mortuary with them tomorrow to make the arrangements. One more step
forward.

Thank you all for your love and support, and for letting me just be #@!$&% mad. ;~)

[PeggyinCT]

Janice,

Life seems to be giving you lots of challenges. You are a very strong woman, and this forum is a great support system. There isn't much that I can say that hasn't already been said. Just know that love is coming your way from Connecticut. Was Kevin your late husband's brother?
Peggy

[Brewsterivy]

I don't know what more I could say about this horrific episode in your family's lives. I think the boys are doing the right thing by having the funeral their way. My mother used to say "don't reach out from the grave to hurt people." It usually applies to putting things in a Will to hurt family members, but it also applies here. You are a very brave woman and will be a source of support for his sons as they work through this. I am very sorry for your loss and the family's grief.

Carol-brewsterivy

[Getupngo]

Yes, my BIL was my late husband's brother. So far with my husband and his siblings, it's Shotguns-2, Natural Causes 0.

Hate it.

I re-drafted the obituary as a news story today, and one of the dailies here will pick it up and run it in the news section (in addition to the paid obit) tomorrow. The family is pretty pleased by that.

I read a note my BIL left to his sons ... he was so confused and befuddled. But it seemed to come down to pride -- that in his depression he couldn't "perform" well in his life, in his job. He couldn't bear not being admired. He couldn't visualize his own future. Like any of us can. I'm so sad that he couldn't have hung in there and come out the other end.

When I was a cub reporter, some 18-year-old did a header off of a local building. I went to the scene, and there he was, red-headed and freckle-faced, with his head cracked open in a pool of blood. The cops standing by were stunned when I started yelling at the kid. "You stupid $#!+! Don't you know that if you just waited, it would PASS?"

I always thought one of the benefits of age is perspective -- that bad stuff comes, but If you hold on, it will pass and you're none the worse for wear. Heck, when the good stuff comes, it will pass as well. My BIL was old enough to know that. But not well enough, apparently.

[JanetA]

a totally selfish act.. I would be mad too!

So sorry,,, nothing else to say that wouldn't be moot @ this point.

hugs to you! YOU are on the right track.. for YOU,, so keep on keeping on.

we love ya!

JA

[dcricket]

Such tragic news Janice. Totally agree with with your thought of how he shouldn't dictate the finale of his end either. This is a time for family and friends to come together and support one another in a time which never makes any sense. Life is such a precious gift, and the triumph over each daily struggle makes us strong. Will be keeping you and yours in my thoughts and prayers.

[Nasoosie]

When I was young, not married, a new teacher, and pregnant, trying to decide what to do with a child I had yet to feel move inside me----totally insane over seeing the deplorable conditions in the 'orphan homes' of those days in Oregon, realizing my days as a teacher would be over before they even started, and I would be relegated to being a store check-out clerk for the rest of my life-----knowing I would be resentful and bitter about being labeled a slut, and with a beautiful child being called a bastard by its peers, (yes, all children born to unwed mothers were called bastards back then), feeling guilt every day of my life for allowing myself to get pregnant in the first place, believing the father loved me and we would get married right then and there, scared how I would ever meet such a life-long obligation and responsibility------I made plans to end my life and my unborn child's life by jumping off a cliff into the Pacific.

As I stood on the edge of that cliff, did I think about my parents? Did I think about my brother? Did I think about my friends? Not once did any of those important facets of my life occur to me. I was totally hell-bent on ending my confusion and guilt and pain and possible life of hell for a child-to-be of mine. I was so wrapped up in my own little piece of insanity that not once did I consider that things might get better if I were to 'carry on.' By the time a person gets to that decision to choose to die, no amount of reasoning can get through the cocoon of insanity. I had been forced into a corner, and could see no rational way out.

So I jumped off that cliff, narrowly missing outjutting rocks, into the Pacific Ocean. As I was sinking down beneath the salt water, I realized I was still alive as I hadn't hit any rocks. (As I was about to force myself to breathe in, I felt my baby move. THEN reality finally hit me-----it wasn't just ME I was condemning to death, but somebody else as well....there really WAS a life in me.)

Ultimately I then had an awakening like a lightning bolt, fought to save us both, climbed out of the ocean by the skin of my teeth, and cried for days on end. (I have since told Mona, my child whom I found after years of her having been adopted, that she saved us both when she was just three months in the cooker! Luckily, also, my tip-top physical condition had cushioned the slam of the water against us, and the fetus suffered no damage.)

Interestingly enough, since that incident, I have NEVER wanted to deliberately die again. I wonder how many suiciders would be still here if the gun had misfired?

My point is, that a person determined to die in order to save what seems like pure hell for themselves and others, doesn't think it's a 'selfish' act, but rather a 'saving all from hell on earth' act. I felt righteous out on that precipice.....not selfish. I KNEW that everyone would be better off without me. I had been forced into a corner out of which I could see no way. (NO WAY OUT is a very important lesson here. Every person needs to have some viable options in their lives. I always try to remember that when I am dealing with desperate people now.)

I realize that sometimes a person would wish to end their own life in order to 'punish' people around them, but I truly believe that happens far less than the wish to 'make everyone's lives better if I were gone.'

Drugs can also cloud the decision to live or die, but I don't count them as 'voluntary acts of suicide' but more like 'chemical induced insanity' with no conscious effort to get there. I call this kind of suicide an OD or an accident, rather than deliberate.

To wrap up this morose morning discussion, I guess I am saying that suicide is not just a simple selfish act, but a very complicated, spider-webby, warped decison made by an insane person (most usually a temporarily insane person) which seems to them to be completely rational and righteous.

Anger in the survivors is, of course, the most rational emotion, however, as they are seeing the tragedy from their point of view.....their loss of someone they loved and depended on-----not from the point of view of the insane person feeling they are less worthy to live than a slug, standing on the top of a cliff, or with their finger on a trigger of a gun pressed into their head. It is really impossible for survivors to comprehend what had driven the suicider to that point. People who feel inadequate or unable to muddle through life believing they are just a burden to those who love them are unable to believe that things will get better. As I said, I KNEW people would be better off without me. And those around me back then had no idea of the extent of my insanity. This is the usual scenario-----"I had no idea he/she was THAT screwed up!" People are very good at keeping emotions hidden.

Lesson is: "What a selfish thing to do" should be replaced with "What a totally insane thing to do. Didn't he/she realize how loved and needed he/she was?" Nor should the survivors feel they are responsible for the loss, as the insane one was too far out of touch with reality to see and realize the expressions of love and need by those who loved and needed him.

Suicide is such a complicated act, going so against a human's wish to live and fight, it cannot be summed up with a simple, "How selfish."

I like Janice's reaction, however, to the young redheaded kid's death, "You stupid *&^%$#@! Didn't you realize this too shall pass?!!" That is exactly how I feel, even now after having been there, when I learn about a person killing himself. The anger is waranted. I would have felt and screamed that exact same thing if I had been the mother of me, had I been successful. The whole gamut of emotions felt by such a needless, senseless loss is all warranted, and the way survivors deal with it is seldom the same. As a survivor, you have to let yourself go and experience the whole gamut of emotions, and accept the consolation and empathy from those who love you. As I say, I understand only too well both sides of this topic----I also lost a very good friend to suicide.

Hopefully, there are few others or no others in this forum who have been on both sides of suicide. But if you have been there, you will know what I am saying. It does give one some incite to have been there.

[BirdbyBird]

Soos, you have described the lonely walk through the shadowed valley well....thank you.

[Ladyhawk]

They said they recognized their father's desire for privacy, but said he was not in his right mind --
or else he would not have done what he did.

Thank you all for your love and support, and for letting me just be #@!$&% mad. ;~)

I had a friend who tried to explain his feeling about trying to commit suicide and what you said sums it up. They're not in their right minds and sometimes we just can't help them. But we sure as heck get to pick up the pieces when they're gone.

Wishing you much peace and support.

[BarbaraRose]

Soos, that was a very moving story! Really touched me! You are very lucky and so is your daughter! I understand some of what you were feeling, as I was in a similar situation contemplating suicide many years ago. I felt worthless, hopeless, in severe emotional pain and felt I had no other options. I was too ashamed of my feelings to tell anyone, and felt no one would care or understand anyways. I guess you need to actually experience that "place" in order to understand it. It is very complicated, and like I said earlier, depression is a disease of the brain that causes irrational thinking. Luckily, I did reach out to a mental health clinic and found some hope. It was a long road back but I did make it. Like they say, suicide is a permantent solution for a temporary problem. But it doesn't seem so "temporary" at the time.
Hopefully Janice, after the anger finally passes, forgiveness will eventually be possible...

Barbie